tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post2266577373540266802..comments2024-01-06T10:36:04.084-05:00Comments on A Commonplace Blog: Plot and thoughtD. G. Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10659136455045567825noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-11499486898146172682010-03-10T18:20:45.715-05:002010-03-10T18:20:45.715-05:00Came across this in Aldous Huxley's Point Coun...Came across this in Aldous Huxley's Point Counter Point:<br />'The great defect of the novel of ideas is that it's a made-up affair. Necessarily; for people who can reel off neatly formulated notions aren't quite real; they're slightly monstrous. Living with monsters becomes rather tiresome in the long run.'zmkchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08972549292961948240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-68404915372975509412010-03-09T18:38:27.949-05:002010-03-09T18:38:27.949-05:00The foregoing account of Swinburne on Charlotte Br...The foregoing account of Swinburne on Charlotte Brontë was posted by Miriam Burstein of the <a href="http://littleprofessor.typepad.com/the_little_professor/" rel="nofollow"><b>Little Professor</b></a>. Its anonymity, she assures me, was an error.D. G. Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659136455045567825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-23199878080638375492010-03-09T17:56:39.895-05:002010-03-09T17:56:39.895-05:00By sheer coincidence, I was just reading Algernon ...By sheer coincidence, I was just reading Algernon Charles Swinburne's book on Charlotte Bronte, which argues that Bronte was among the 19th c.'s greatest novelists for precisely this reason: she was the rare possessor of a "gift," he <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=bqmke0ms7C8C&pg=PA13#v=onepage&q=&f=false" rel="nofollow">argues</a>, "to make us feel in every nerve, at every step forward which our imagination is compelled to take under the guidance of another's, that thus and not otherwise, but in all things altogether even as we are told and shown, it was and it must have been with the human figures set before us in their action and their suffering; that thus and not otherwise they absolutely must and would have felt and thought and spoken under the proposed conditions." (That being said, he also argues that this is a quality of CB's "genius," which he distinguishes from "intellect.")Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-33144446546234156412010-03-09T14:05:09.481-05:002010-03-09T14:05:09.481-05:00I am publishing the anonymous comment on Oakeshott...I am publishing the anonymous comment on Oakeshott and <i>Under the Net</i>, because of its informational value.<br /><br />A reminder, though, that anonymous comments are not acceptable here at <b>A Commonplace Blog</b>.D. G. Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659136455045567825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-31507088542976842522010-03-09T13:59:11.862-05:002010-03-09T13:59:11.862-05:00Hello David,
I think the Murdoch character that w...Hello David,<br /><br />I think the Murdoch character that was supposedly based on Oakeshott was Hugo Bellfounder from her first novel **Under the Net.** Though I see some resemblance, others contest the identification. I have yet to read **The Philosopher's Pupil.**Anonymoushttp://manwithoutqualities.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-35300165860606193172010-03-09T12:37:33.403-05:002010-03-09T12:37:33.403-05:00Maybe it is a slight misjudgment to hail the impor...Maybe it is a slight misjudgment to hail the importance of a thoroughly organized and ordered plot in philosophical fiction. It suggests - to me anyway - that whatever intended philosophy (I do not mean to resurrect a debate on "authorial intention") in the novel must be hidden and must only be allowed to drip through the real story and the characters. Thus plot is the priority in such fiction.<br /><br />The main example against this would be Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", which is essentially the thesis of the author, dressed up in the lifelong thoughts of the mentally degenerating protagonist. Yes, there is a plot but it is little more than analogy. It is little more than a philosophical text with a different cover, on a different book shelf. I do not say this to be critical as it is a brilliant "novel" but it serves to show, to some extent, the secondary nature of plot in some philosophical fiction.Pardaad Chamsazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02488717777176619025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-55395259407704870702010-03-09T09:57:21.890-05:002010-03-09T09:57:21.890-05:00Your distinction between plot and character may pe...Your distinction between plot and character may pertain to novels, though I do not necessarily agree, but I would argue--though you may disagree--that character rather than plot is the foundation upon which successful short stories must be built. And--to extend the argument further--would you not agree with me that good philosophical arguments can be found in short stories? My reading of Flannery O'Connor and Jorge Luis Borges (to name but two authors) convinces me that such is the case. Perhaps, though, your preference for novels over short stories complicates your consideration of my argument.R/Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07791522136032565027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-12960723430954651942010-03-09T09:43:47.370-05:002010-03-09T09:43:47.370-05:00Funny—that’s exactly why I like The Flight from th...Funny—that’s exactly why I like <i>The Flight from the Enchanter</i>.D. G. Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659136455045567825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-6592674434205006972010-03-09T08:56:34.433-05:002010-03-09T08:56:34.433-05:00Funny; The Flight from the Enchanter is one of my ...Funny; <i>The Flight from the Enchanter</i> is one of my least favorite Murdochs--though my reason looks a bit silly in retrospect: I had trouble believing in the manipulative, evil character at its center . . . who appears to have been based closely on Canetti. <br /><br />My favorite tends to shift among <i>The Nice and the Good</i>, <i>The Green Knight</i>, and <i>Nuns and Soldiers</i>, with <i>The Good Apprentice</i> once in a while taking the stage. The climax of <i>The Nice and the Good</i> is one of the most wearingly tense reading experiences available, holding up even to re-reading--and it's a great example of how this novelist of intellect and ideas also knew how to write action; the sheer physicality of some of her climactic scenes is stunning. <br /><br />And now to give <i>The Philosopher's Pupil</i> another try!Levi Stahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11094919454842047688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-60093110614630293532010-03-09T08:28:40.721-05:002010-03-09T08:28:40.721-05:00Another possibility is a novel that sets out to te...Another possibility is a novel that sets out to test a theory. Hemingway said, for example, that <i>The Sun Also Rises</i> was written to discover whether sexual promiscuity was a “moral” way to live (where “moral” means not being left with a bad taste in the mouth). Brett’s decision at the end of the novel not to be a bitch would be, on this showing, conclusive evidence that the test was a failure.<br /><br />My <i>favorite</i> Murdoch is her second book—<i>The Flight from the Enchanter</i>. So hard to pick her “best,” though.D. G. Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659136455045567825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-83783334748896134172010-03-08T23:17:08.553-05:002010-03-08T23:17:08.553-05:00I like this post. I think the idea that plot is fi...I like this post. I think the idea that plot is fiction's correlate of argument, besides being appropriate etymologically, is one that has a lot of merit. The novelist who is most often recognized in philosophy as presenting philosophical ideas is Austen (thanks to Gilbert Ryle, Alasdair MacIntyre, and some others); and while there is plenty of dianoia in Austen, it really is the plot that makes <i>Mansfield Park</i>, for instance, a thorough rethinking of eighteenth century appproaches to virtue (Shaftesbury, Hume, etc.). Likewise, it's really the plot that makes Unamuno's <i>San Manuel Bueno, Mártir</i> such a powerful and concentrated vehicle for Unamuno's ideas.<br /><br />Making dianoia the vehicle of ideas makes more sense in the context of Greek tragedies, which Aristotle would, of course, have had in mind, than it does in the context of novels; in a Greek tragedy it's not uncommon for the major action to happen off stage, and everything is commented on by the omnipresent Chorus. I suspect each kind of writing has its own intellectual strength: novels in their plots, plays in their dramatic speeches (or, more subtly, in the contrasts and similiarities among all the dramatic speeches), certain kinds of poems in their implicit <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=Oo1DkPG_Lw8C&pg=PA34" rel="nofollow">poetic syllogisms</a>, and so on.<br /><br />I too had difficulty with the beginning of Murdoch's <i>The Philosopher's Pupil</i>; but it certainly became more engrossing as it went on. My favorite Murdoch, though, is <i>The Green Knight</i>.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06698839146562734910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-8561118500357195482010-03-08T21:00:03.517-05:002010-03-08T21:00:03.517-05:00I think that La Chute is really about the laying w...I think that La Chute is really about the laying waste of the inmost being of the listener by a man in whom all hope has been smothered. It is a religious book in the same way as Bernanos' M. Ouine, and it also reminds me of a passage from one of Mauriac's works "il y a des ames qui lui sont donnes" (forgive the lack of accents). In short Jean-Baptiste Clamence is the devil himself. Camus' best and most chilling work.ANDROMACHEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11418162966627932256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-87651514224384337262010-03-08T17:17:14.197-05:002010-03-08T17:17:14.197-05:00i had certain ideas about the world which i wanted...i had certain ideas about the world which i wanted to communicate in the only novel i've written (perhaps the only one i will). When i jotted down ideas and scenes for the plot, back in 2002, i had notes about certain "philosophical" ideas, which i then worked up into conversations - but they tended to be monologues akin to those of Plato's late "dialogues", where Socrates talks almost constantly, with other people saying "yes, I see" from time to time. They stood apart from the character and the plot, as a jewel stands apart from its setting.<br /><br />i'm presently rewriting the beast and aiming for a more organic union between ideas and character and plot. Although the monologues were the kind of things these characters would say, they nonetheless seemed crowbarred in, rather than just arising from the character. i think character has to come first; character makes the plot ("a man's character is his fate"); one's sense of the world should just arise from all this.<br /><br />What of fictions like Notes from Underground, or Camus' The Fall? - i read the latter about 6 times in 3 years before i felt i understood what it was "about". Ostensibly it's a monologue by an ex-left-wing Parisian, a lawyer of fashionable political causes who has fallen inexplicably from his self-righteousness and become a drunk, looking back on his Sartre-like smugness with disgust.<br /><br />There's no overt message but nonetheless i felt there was a deeper "meaning", a philosophical meaning if you like. Finally, after about 6 readings, i felt it was about a world without real love, about narcissism, made all the more appalling in that the speaker is someone who, in his loveless narcissism, espoused all the right political causes about universal love and brotherhood, etc. - because it allowed him to set himself up as a judge over everyone else.<br /><br />From what i know of Camus' non-fiction, especially The Rebel, and his falling out with Sartre, i feel this idea was in his mind, but he buries it deep under the surface of the fiction. This means that you can read & enjoy it without getting the "meaning" (which to me, means it's worked as a novel), but the meaning is there, if you're looking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-18226333491260266492010-03-08T12:46:32.430-05:002010-03-08T12:46:32.430-05:00Absolutely, Levi. And believe me, your experience ...Absolutely, Levi. And believe me, your experience was also mine. You just have to plow ahead, by an act of will, and before you know it the headlong momentum of Murdoch’s plot will take over.D. G. Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659136455045567825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3458341.post-68918554748165461542010-03-08T12:25:42.500-05:002010-03-08T12:25:42.500-05:00The Philosopher's Pupil is the only Murdoch no...<i>The Philosopher's Pupil</i> is the only Murdoch novel I've not read--and I've read many of the others multiple times, as she's one of my favorite writers. It's been fifteen years since I made the attempt, so the details are vague, but something about the tone of the opening chapters was incredibly off-putting--sounds like you would suggest I try it again?Levi Stahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11094919454842047688noreply@blogger.com